PETER ALEXANDER:
This Sunday: presidential showdown. President Biden and former President Trump are set to face off in the first debate of the 2024 campaign.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I'm not interested in playing politics with border or immigration. I'm interested in fixing it.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
When I'm reelected, Joe Biden's illegal amnesty plan will be ripped up and thrown out on the very first day.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Will this high stakes face-off shake up the race? My guests this morning: Biden campaign co-chair Mitch Landrieu and Republican Governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota. Plus: running mates. Donald Trump narrows his choices for his vice presidential pick.
DOUG BURGUM:
There’s never been a better politician, a better debater, a better communicator.
SEN. J.D. VANCE:
I feel very comfortable with the fact that I could do the job.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Who will make the final cut? And: Team of Rivals. Vladamir Putin makes a rare visit to North Korea to sign a mutual defense pact as he seeks more ammunition for the war in Ukraine. How will the West confront this new escalating threat? Joining me for insight and analysis are: The Wall Street Journal Senior Political Correspondent Molly Ball; Greg Bluestein, senior political reporter for The Atlanta Journal Constitution, former Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo; and Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokeswoman for Vice President Kamala Harris. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Good Sunday morning. I’m Peter Alexander, in for Kristen Welker. It has been more than 1,300 days since the last debate between President Biden and former President Trump – the last time either man appeared on a debate stage. In four days, they will face off again in the earliest general election debate in history in what may be the most consequential face-to-face in decades. The two candidates and their allies have signaled they will attempt to portray each other in the most negative light possible: casting Trump as an unhinged felon and President Biden as not physically or mentally equipped to serve another term.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Crooked Joe’s gone to a log cabin to study, prepare. No he didn’t – he's sleeping now because they want to get him good and strong. So a little before debate time he gets a shot in the [EXPLETIVE].
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The things he says are off the wall. I want to be a dictator on day one. I want to move in a direction where he talks about, you know, suspending the Constitution. All I have to do is hear what he says – remind people what he says and what I believe and what he believes.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
The stakes are high. More than 73-million people tuned into the first Biden-Trump debate in 2020. President Biden is spending the weekend at Camp David, hunkered down in formal debate prep. The president's personal lawyer Bob Bauer is playing the role of Mr. Trump, reprising his role from 2020. Mr. Trump was on the campaign trail on Saturday. Aides say he'll spend time this week meeting privately with advisors at his Florida estate as part of a more informal debate prep process. President Biden in closed-door fundraisers and on the trail has previewed what will be one of his key debate messages: that Mr. Trump is now a greater threat to the country than during his time in office.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The threat that Trump poses is greater in his second term than his first. It's clear that when he lost in 2020, something literally snapped in this guy. Now, he's running again, and he’s clearly unhinged.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
Trump allies are pushing the former president to focus on President Biden's record and some of his own plans, instead of venting about the legal cases against him and repeating false claims of election fraud. Biden's team expects aggressive attacks on the president's record on immigration and on the economy in particular. Tomorrow marks the two-year anniversary of the Supreme Court's Dobbs decision overturning Roe v. Wade. And both the president and vice president are making the fight to protect reproductive rights central to their campaign.
[START TAPE]
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS: I think the debate is going to make clear the contrast between our president, the current president, who works on behalf of the American people, fights for the American people and the former president who pretty much spends full time fighting for himself.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
Mr. Trump's VP shortlist has gotten even shorter. In interviews with NBC News, more than a dozen sources wired into the process told us that North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum and Ohio Senator J.D. Vance are now emerging as the top finalists. Florida Senator Marco Rubio remains in contention but those sources say there are doubts about Rubio's enthusiasm for the job. Both Burgum and Vance were asked this week whether they want to be VP.
[START TAPE]
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
When he makes that decision, it’s solely up to him and he’s the guy that controls the criteria. There's never been a better politician, a better debater, a better communicator.
SEN. J.D. VANCE:
I think that's ultimately, that's Donald Trump's choice whether he selects me as vice president. I feel very comfortable with the fact that I could do the job. But look, you have to have some humility going into this, too.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
And on Saturday, NBC News asked Mr. Trump about whether his vice presidential pick will come to Thursday's debate.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP: Most likely, yeah. They'll be there.
NBC NEWS REPORTER:
Have you decided who your vice president is?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP: In my mind, yeah.
NBC NEWS REPORTER:
Do they know?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP: No, nobody knows.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
And joining me now is Mitch Landrieu, national co-chair for President Biden's campaign. Mr. Landrieu, welcome back to Meet the Press.
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Hey, nice to see you. Thanks for having me.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me get started. President Biden asked for this debate in June, the earliest general election debate in history. Aides privately tell me that the campaign was looking for an opportunity to shake up a race that has largely been static for months, here. Is President Biden the underdog in this debate?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
No, I don't think so. The president has debated Donald Trump twice and beat him twice already. The president is really anxious to tell his story to the American people, as he has been doing for the past three and a half years. Listen, this race is going to be tight. Everybody knows that. It's going to come down to a couple of votes in a couple of really important states. And it's important for the country to see the difference between these two men. Joe Biden wakes up every day thinking about the American people, fighting hard for regular folks, thinking about ways to lift everybody up. Donald Trump wakes up every day pretty much thinking about himself, thinking about his rich friends. And then, really thinking about ways to hurt people with the power that he would have if he were the president of the United States again. And I think the president wants to be really clear about the difference between those two that everybody will see again on Thursday.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And, Mitch, let me ask you. Will you at least concede that this is a high reward/high risk strategy for President Biden, given the doubts that Americans have about his ability to serve another four years?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Well, listen. everything that we do is high risk. I mean, every campaign that you have is going to be close. So, everything that you do has to work It has to be thoughtful. But when the American people continue to see Donald Trump do and say the things he's done before, the American people are going to go, "I don't want a guy that thinks about himself and his rich friends.
I want somebody that thinks about me, that is fighting for myself." So, I expect President Biden to do an excellent job, just like he did in the last two debates. It really doesn't matter how Donald Trump shows up. If he comes in unhinged like he is most of the time, or he sits there and is quiet, people are going to know that he's a twice-impeached convicted felon who's been found to have defamed somebody, sexually abused somebody, and gone bankrupt six times. They will always know that. And that is something that the American people have to think about, about the wisdom, the character, and the judgment of the person who they're going to appoint to lead America, not only at home but also to the rest of the world.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And as you know well, top of mind for so many Americans right now, both the economy and inflation. Despite limited signs of improvement for President Biden, polls consistently show that voters prefer Mr. Trump over President Biden, when it comes to handling the economy. So, how do you change the minds of those Americans who say they are still not feeling the progress that you promote?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Well, first of all, those feelings are really important, and they're real. But to remind people that when President Biden took over, the country was in the midst, as you know, of COVID. They were in the midst of, as you now know, an insurrection, and an economic cataclysmic downfall. President Biden came to the rescue. He passed four of the biggest domestic pieces of legislation that were seen in our country's history. He's created 15 million jobs, the lowest unemployment rate that we've seen in the last 50 years. But the problem is that all of those benefits are not flowing down to everybody as quickly as possible. And that's why Joe Biden, every day, is fighting to save people money by fighting for lower prescription drug costs, fighting for health care, fighting to make sure people have access to housing, fighting to make sure big oil and all of the big companies are not taking profits when they're not supposed to--
PETER ALEXANDER:
And just--
MITCH LANDRIEU:
--and making sure that everybody has a better chance to support their families.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And, Mitch, just to be very clear, you just mentioned housing, there. Home prices right now have hit a record high; the median U.S. home price is $419,000. You were talking about food prices as well. Those costs are up 20% since the start of the Biden presidency. I want to ask specifically about the debate. There's going to be no studio audience, and a candidate's microphone is going to be muted when it is not their turn to speak. If the Biden campaign's intention is to show Trump being Trump, with all the interruptions that we saw back in that first debate in 2020, does this, in some way. prove to be an advantage for Donald Trump? Does it cause a bigger risk for Joe Biden?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
I don't know. I mean, who knows what Donald Trump is going to do in any minute or any time? I'm going to bet that he's going to talk over the microphone a hundred times like he does, because he's a bully. But the best way to fight a bully is to stand up to him. And Joe Biden has done that before; he's going to do it again. The fact still remains that Donald Trump's presidency was awful. Seventeen of his cabinet members left and said, "Please don't elect him again." Three of the people that he's thinking about picking as vice president, that are on his top list, actually asked the American people not to listen to Donald Trump because that he was a fraud. So this is a really clear choice. You can have a great guy that's got great character, great judgment, great wisdom, that fights for the American people. Or you can have a guy that thinks about himself and just wants to hurt everybody who's not for him.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you--
MITCH LANDRIEU:
It's going to be a pretty clear choice. And the American people will get it right.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, they're going to get a chance to see these two men side by side just four days from now. Let me ask you about a new ad from the Biden campaign that was just released. It focuses heavily on Mr. Trump's felony convictions. It calls him a quote, "Convicted criminal who is only out for himself." Will Joe Biden make that same argument on the debate stage?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Well, I'll let the president say what he's going to say. But the fact of the matter is that the sky is blue sometimes, and Donald Trump is a convicted felon. And the American people have to sit in that for a second. The person who wants to be president has to go sit with his probation officer before he actually goes to the debate. And so it is just a fact, but it's not just to call Donald Trump a convicted felon. It goes to his behavior and it goes to his character. Remember, he's actually filed bankruptcy six times. That means that he's not just a bad business guy, it means he screwed all the small people who actually relied on him for a living. And so the American people are going to see that. When you have 17 cabinet members and his chief of staff saying to you, "I witnessed this--"
PETER ALEXANDER:
Understood.
MITCH LANDRIEU:
--"this guy." The people who know Donald Trump the best like him the least. That's worth taking a moment on, to think about whether or not this guy is just going to be better next time at being bad.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And, to be clear, many Democrats say that President Biden is spending too much time on this particular topic of democracy being at risk. It's their argument that, if you believe that democracy is at risk right now, you're already voting for Joe Biden. Are they wrong?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
No, they're not wrong. Democracy's really important. Donald Trump, as you know, led the insurrection and talks about political violence. And if you undo our democratic norms, you don't even have a chance to make a living. But the point that they're making, and it's a good point, and it's worthy, and Joe Biden knows this and is working hard on it: You need to lower the costs for American citizens. And Joe Biden is fighting for that every day on housing costs, on gas, on groceries. Inflation has come down from 9% to 3% because Joe Biden is working every day. And don't forget, Americans are now back at work. We're building things now. We're making products in the United States of America. The stock market has hit four all-time highs. But we've got to do more because people are feeling the pain. And Joe Biden wants to make that easier for them.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Mitch, let me ask you about this. In the 2020 campaign, you'll remember, after four years of Donald Trump, Joe Biden promised to return the nation to what he called "normalcy." And he cast himself as a bridge to new leadership. Here is what he said then.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else. There's an entire generation of leaders, you saw, stand behind me. They are the future of this country.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
So here we are four years later, and Joe Biden is back on the ballot. What changed?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Well, nothing changed. Joe Biden didn't say that he was going to be a one-term president. He said he was going to lay a strong foundation to build a new generation of leaders and, my goodness, look at all the incredible Democratic leaders we have across the country. We have governors now that weren't in office before that are now doing an incredible job. Wes Moore in Maryland who, as you know, was right there when the bridge collapsed and, in partnership with the president, got the back up and operating. Josh Shapiro--
PETER ALEXANDER:
Mitch, if there are so many other good Democrats out there--
MITCH LANDRIEU:
--in Pennsylvania who rebuilt--
PETER ALEXANDER:
--why not hand the reins over to a different Democrat this go-around, where you would take away the concerns about his mental fitness to serve?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Well, first of all, Joe Biden doesn't have any concerns about his mental fitness, nor do I. I've spent an incredible amount of time with Joe Biden. That's just the fade that the other side is pushing. Joe Biden has taken this country from being in a cataclysmic downfall to actually leading the world once again. And he's going to continue to do that, and he has built up an entire new generation of leaders that will govern this country really well into the future. And so he's succeeded masterfully in both of those things.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask about policy, if I can. Mr. Trump is expected, per our reporting, to attack President Biden as being weak on immigration, amplifying the examples of undocumented migrants committing crimes. President Biden is losing ground with some Latino voters. How will the president respond to those attacks?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Well, first of all, the border is in trouble and it has been for the past 20 or 30 years in this country. Joe Biden on day one – on day one – sent a comprehensive immigration reform proposal to Congress. They did nothing with it. Then, as you may recall now, four months ago, after Congress doing nothing, the president met with the most conservative Republicans in the country. They asked for everything in the border bill. The president gave it to them. And because Donald Trump called and told them not to do it, that border bill is still waiting – challenges. And so we have a long way to go on that. It's a very important issue. And making sure that America is safe and secure is one of Joe Biden's top priorities.
PETER ALEXANDER:
But, Mitch, to be clear, the question is why is Joe Biden losing ground with some Latino voters right now?
MITCH LANDRIEU:
Well, I don't know. I think that you've got to play this thing out and see actually how it works. Latino voters are like everybody else. They move around from space to space. You see this with African American voters as well. The point of the matter is most Americans want a safe and secure country. They want a stable president. They want somebody that is fighting for them. And at the end of the day, I think that they're going to vote for Joe Biden.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Mitch Landrieu, we appreciate your joining us and sharing your perspective. Thank you very much. And, when we come back, Republican Governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota joins me here next.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Welcome back. Former President Trump says he only knows who he will pick as a running mate. He's the only one with that information in his mind. And on Saturday at a gathering of religious Conservatives here in Washington, the crowd had some ideas, shouting, "VP! VP," as our next guest took the stage. And joining me now is Republican governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota. Governor Noem, welcome to Meet the Press.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
PETER ALEXANDER:
We heard how President Biden is preparing for the debate from Mitch Landrieu moments ago. Here's what a group of veterans of presidential debate prep said to Republican strategist Karl Rove about what Donald Trump needs to accomplish. They said, quote, "Everyone agreed that Mr. Trump cannot come off as unhinged or enraged. The words 'rigged election' should not pass his lips. He has to keep his cool and cannot make it all about himself." Is that good advice, governor?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I think it's an important debate. It'll be a great opportunity for President Trump to talk about his policies and how his policies when he served as president of this country were good for every single family that lived here. They had more money in their pockets, the grocery prices were down, gas prices were down. There was a lot more opportunity. So he's going to have a fantastic opportunity to talk about what his policies delivered for the American people.
PETER ALEXANDER:
To be clear, in 2022 you said the personal insults are part of what you did not appreciate about Mr. Trump. Should he avoid those insults on the debate stage?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
You know, I don't think that he has to get personal in this debate at all because he's going to have so many good things to talk about in contrast with Joe Biden's policies. Joe Biden's policies have just been devastating for the families that live here in this country. Their costs have gone up. They've had less opportunities and they're just really incredibly challenged right now with trying to afford to put food on the table. So that's really what I think President Trump is planning on focusing on.
PETER ALEXANDER:
So let's talk about the economy for a moment if we can and specifically Mr. Trump's plans on it. He has talked about a 60% tariff on all Chinese imports. He recently floated an all-tariff policy. As you know, he calls himself a tariff man, which economists say is effectively a tax on American consumers. So how would sweeping new tariffs help middle and lower-income Americans?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Well, I believe when he was talking about that, what he was referencing was getting rid of the income tax, which obviously would help every single family in this country too, and doing that in exchange with some of those tariffs –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, some Americans, lowest income Americans, they don't, they don't pay the income tax. So,
wouldn't they end up paying more on the tariff if it affected all Americans?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I served on the Ways and Means Committee when I was in Congress, and that's the committee that does all tax policy, all trade policy. And many times, when we talk about trade and trade with other countries, and especially with China, we talk about free and fair trade. Unfortunately, we've gotten a lot of free trade. We've never been treated fairly by China, not once they have manipulated their regulations and hit us at their borders with regulations that take more money out of Americans' pockets.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And I want to talk specifically about what you have said about tariffs in the past and the resulting trade wars in Donald Trump's first term. You said, quote, "South Dakota has been devastated by the trade wars that are going on." Do you still agree that more tariffs, as Mr. Trump proposes, could be devastating to South Dakota's economy?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I think it's very important to remember and be specific about when tariffs are utilized. So I'm a farmer and a rancher, and many times when you talk about tariffs they do have an impact on us and on our income. But if you're using them –
PETER ALEXANDER:
The soybean farmers know as well as anybody in your state.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Yes. And we also know very well that when our soybeans hit the border of China that they hit us with sanitary and phytosanitary regulations and reject our shiploads of soybeans based on things that aren't even in our trade agreement –
PETER ALEXANDER:
And when China hit you back, it had a real impact on the people in your state.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Oh, listen, they are –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Though under Donald Trump's watch –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
China's definitely our enemy when it comes to the Communist Party and who it's run by, that government. They've never treated us fairly under our trade agreements. And I'm hopeful that President Trump will continue to be strong and fight for the American consumer.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you about the infrastructure law. It never got passed under President Trump. It did pass with bipartisan support by President Biden in 2021. It has provided South Dakota with $1.5 billion for more than 250 projects. They include more than $800 million for roads and bridges, $47 million for airports, $100 million to expand broadband access. Has South Dakota benefited from President Biden's bipartisan infrastructure law?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
You know, South Dakota has used dollars from the federal money to help better the families in our state, but we also have helped our families by opening up our state and by making sure our economy was strong. We've made very different decisions when President Biden was in office than we did when President Trump was. I would say that every day as governor when Trump was in the White House I was on offense. I was able to go out there and solve problems for Americans and for people in my state. With Biden in the White House now I've been on defense. It's been a consistent fight against regulations and administrative rules and interpretations and even lawsuits from the federal government on what we're doing.
PETER ALEXANDER:
So to be clear, you wouldn't give the $1.5 billion back. So has your state, has South Dakota, benefited from the $1.5 billion.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
We have used those dollars strategically. We've –
PETER ALEXANDER:
So you've benefited you would agree.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I would say that those dollars we used strategically, knowing that if we returned those dollars back they'd be sent to another state and that they would use them. Some of them we've rejected though. The ones that came with ties to green new energy deals and some regulations and more control for the federal government, we've rejected some of those dollars, recognizing that it was just a way for Joe Biden to grab more control over our families.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you about some of our reporting that shows that there are three names now on Donald Trump's short list to serve as his vice presidential pick. Yours is not one of them right now. Are you being vetted? Have you received the paperwork?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
The only person who knows who that vice president's going to be is Donald Trump.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Have you received the paperwork though?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
No, I haven't received any paperwork. No. I haven't. I've had conversations with the president, and I know that he is the only one who will be making the decisions on who will be his vice president.
PETER ALEXANDER:
You said that having a woman on the ticket would help Donald Trump win. And he said on this program last year that he liked the concept of running with a woman. Only men, as you know, are on his short list right now: Burgum, Vance, Rubio. Would Donald Trump be making a mistake if he does not pick a woman as his running mate?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
You know, I think he needs to pick the best person for the job. He needs to pick someone that will help him win. And I think that President Trump is in a fantastic position to win this election. He's strong. He's right on all the policies. He needs to pick somebody who will help him win and make sure that he's back in the White House fighting for America.
PETER ALEXANDER:
I need to ask you, you wrote in your recent book “No Going Back” about shooting your dog Cricket. Of course the blowback was intense there. Do you think that sharing that anecdote, whether fairly or unfairly, cost you a shot at being his vice president.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
You know, I would say that that was a story from 20 years ago about me protecting my children from a vicious animal. So we've covered that, and any mom in those situations when you have an animal that's viciously killing livestock and attacking people it's a tough decision. The reason it's in my book is because that book is filled with challenging times and hard decisions. And it's a story, but I think many Americans will be able to read and to learn how they can get engaged with their government again.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And to be clear, Republicans have had a lot to say about your story. "Puppy dogs are pretty popular," from Senator Rounds of your state. "I was pretty stunned when I read it," said another. "Why would you do that to a puppy. It's just crazy." Even Donald Trump said about that episode, Governor, that you had a bad week. Do you think it cost you a shot at being his VP?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Did you read the book?
PETER ALEXANDER:
We have read a lot of the book –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
You read the book?
PETER ALEXANDER:
I haven't read it cover to cover but –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
It's a wonderful book –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– I've read large portions of it –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
And if you read the book a lot of what got reported was not the truth, was not the truth on the story. So I would encourage people to read the book and to really find out the truth on why that story is in there and read the other parts of the story about how we're not going back to politics the way that it used to be, how Donald Trump changed politics because we're having much more honest and genuine conversations about the challenges that people face.
PETER ALEXANDER:
So let's talk about the book, having gone through much of it right now. This week Russian president Vladimir Putin traveled to North Korea to meet with Kim Jong Un. In the first release of your book you wrote, "I remember when I met with North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un." There was no evidence that that meeting happened. So how did it make it into your book, governor –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I'm not going to talk about that.
PETER ALEXANDER:
You're not going to talk about how it made it into your book?
GOVERNOR KRISTI NOEM:
I took that line out of my book, and I'm not going to talk about it –
PETER ALEXANDER:
I guess my question is you wrote the book though so why was that line ever in your book if that didn't happen –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I wrote the book and I hope people will read it. It's a good book about how the American citizen can get involved in their government, again, and what they can do and how the most powerful person in government is them, it's the people who show up, who get engaged and the stories of what they can do to take this country back and how Donald Trump's policies work for the American people –
PETER ALEXANDER:
And just to understand then, just to put it to bed once and for all, did you or did you not meet with Kim Jong Un?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I am not going to talk about this.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Why is that such a difficult one to say publicly?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Because I've taken that line out of the book, and I'm not going to discuss it.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Okay. But I guess the question is because you wrote it in the book people just wanted to know whether that was an accurate or an inaccurate statement. Let me ask you about the topic of abortion, one that you focused on heavily at the Faith and Freedom event last night. As a member of Congress you voted for federal legislation that defines life as beginning at conception. Donald Trump does not support that. In fact, he now says that he would not take any federal action on abortion if elected. Is that the right call?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
You know, I think what's important is that Roe V. Wade and that decision of it being overturned has given the decision back to the people at the state level, and every state will look different. And I think that's appropriate. So I know that every state will have different laws, and what we need to do is continue to talk about what we can do to help women who are in crisis, what we can do to walk alongside them and support them and love them. And, you know, when people find an unplanned pregnancy that's a very difficult time for many of them, when they're challenged with that. And so that's what we've chosen to do in South Dakota is to make sure we're focused on supporting women and supporting families and making sure that we're taking care of those that find themselves in this type of a situation –
PETER ALEXANDER:
And, as you know, on this topic South Dakota has some of the most restrictive laws in the country. It has no exceptions allowing an abortion in cases of rape and incest. Donald Trump says he supports those exceptions, said he would not pick a running mate if they do not support those exceptions. Why is he wrong on that?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Oh, I wouldn't say that. I would say that every state is going to look different. And he's said that many times over. In fact, you know, in our state specifically the people decide. The people will decide what the law looks like. I, as the Governor, don't get to be the dictator. You know, we get to talk to people about what the law will be and have that discussion and then every state will look different.
PETER ALEXANDER:
We're in the shadow of the Capitol right now, just outside the building here. On January 6th, 2021 you posted a message immediately condemning the violence. You said, "what's happening in the Capitol right now must stop." What message is Donald Trump, governor, sending by promising to pardon the rioters who have been convicted if he wins?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I think each of those situations needs to be looked at separately.
PETER ALEXANDER:
But he hasn't –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
You can't put –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– made that distinction –
GOVERNOR KRISTI NOEM:
– a blanket approach.
PETER ALEXANDER:
So you would disagree with him in pardoning all of them.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I would say that every single one of those cases needs to be looked at specifically and individually –
PETER ALEXANDER:
So let me ask you specifically about the hundred –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
What I have been very clear about is that we don't want to see another January 6th again. Nobody in this country wants to see another day like that again. And I believe that Donald Trump, when he comes back to the White House and is in charge of this country, we're going to have incredible opportunities to show that people in this country will be safer, that we'll have law and order back in our streets. If you look at one of the most violent areas of our country is often Democrat-run cities, sanctuary cities with an open border –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, in fact violent crime –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
– where we're allowing –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– in the country –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
– migrant –
PETER ALEXANDER:
--is down 50% since Joe Biden took office. But specifically, just to get back to this topic of the rioters, is Donald Trump wrong when he says he would pardon all of those who have been convicted in the January 6th attack?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Each of those individuals needs to be looked at separately, as far as what their role was and what was happening –
PETER ALEXANDER:
And the 132 –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
– in that situation –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– of them who admitted to assaulting law enforcement officers, would you agree that they should not be pardoned?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I think that every one of those cases needs to be looked at individually. I think –
PETER ALEXANDER:
And if they admitted--
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
– that January 6th –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– to it you would agree that would be –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I think that this is what our judicial system is for. It's supposed to be the scales of justice, and Lady –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, they've been –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
– Justice is –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– through the judicial –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
– supposed to be blind –
PETER ALEXANDER:
--system. He's offering to pardon them. So I guess the question is would that be based on the grounds if they attacked law enforcement –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
That will be –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– officers –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
– based on his prerogative and his decision when he looks at those cases.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Okay.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
But what I would say is that we are a nation of laws and they need to be enforced, and we have a president in the White House today that is ignoring federal law. He is ignoring federal law and allowing people into this country that are incredibly dangerous. And just this week I think we had four different people that were attacked or raped or murdered by illegal immigrants that have come in over our open border. And that cannot continue to happen –
PETER ALEXANDER:
To be clear, as you know well, undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a much lower percentage than Americans do. But let me ask you a last question about your future, which is regardless of whether you are on the ticket this time, are you considering a presidential run in the future, in 2028?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Oh, my goodness, I'm considering being the Governor of South Dakota as long as they'll have me. So I love my job. It's the best job, taking care of the people in my state. And that's my plan for the future –
PETER ALEXANDER:
It's a beautiful state. Are you ruling it out?
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
I'm not even thinking about it right now. So I certainly have a situation where I'm busy at home and we have a lot to get accomplished in South Dakota the next several years.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Okay. To be clear, at least for now, you're not ruling it out. Perhaps we'll see you again along the way. Kristi Noem –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Thank you –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– governor of South Dakota, I appreciate your –
GOV. KRISTI NOEM:
Thank you--
PETER ALEXANDER:
– being with us in person. Thank you so much. And when we come back, incumbent presidents often struggle in their first debate. Will President Biden be ready? The panel is next.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. Greg Bluestein, senior political reporter for the Atlanta Journal Constitution; Molly Ball, senior political correspondent for the Wall Street Journal; Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokesperson to Vice President Kamala Harris and host of The Weekend; and former Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo of Florida. Appreciate you all being with us as we look ahead to the debate coming up. Molly, I'll start with you. President Biden and Mr. Trump, they’re going to be facing off in Atlanta just a few days from now. 1,300 days since either of these men have been on a debate stage. Who is facing more pressure? Who's the pressure on?
MOLLY BALL:
Well, when you say it like that, it doesn't even feel like that long, right? Look, this debate is hugely consequential. It's the first chance for either candidate to be – to break out of what has essentially been a tie for the past year and try to shake things up, turn momentum in their favor. I think you have to say that more pressure is on President Biden. We know from polls that voters have more doubts about his age and his ability to do the job. They want to see him perform in a pressure – high pressure situation. As you say, neither of these candidates has debated in many years. And so I think there's going to be a lot of interest on – on their respective stamina, their ability to parry questions and speak consistently and – and comprehensively in addition to what they actually say and what sort of demeanor they present.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, and simply to synthesize your thoughts into these two minute sound bites that you may get, or one minute at other times. Greg, this is your home state. What are you going to be watching for?
GREG BLUESTEIN:
Look, the pressure's on President Biden in my view as well. There's been a lot of questions about his polls, about his ground game, about enthusiasm, about grassroots energy and about whether he can do the job. And so there'll be a lot of pressure looking at how he's going to synthesize those answers and also what he can Donald Trump to say. You know, I think a week from now we might be talking more about what he got Donald – goaded Donald Trump into saying and less about what President Biden said himself.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Symone, incumbents historically have lost the first debate. Go back to Barack Obama with Mitt Romney back in 2012. What are you hearing about how the Biden campaign is trying to prevent that from happening here?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Well, look, I think first of all, the – the Biden team will tell you that they – they – the reason we are here today in this particular space looking forward to the debate this Thursday is because of the challenge that the president issued to the former president to meet him at the debate stage earlier than usual outside of the presidential debate commission. And I think that they’re setting – they set the terms. And now they know that they have to rise to the occasion. The Biden folks do believe that every time they'd asked the president to, you know, meet the moment he has. So they're not concerned about that. I think that from the Trump perspective, though, I think that Donald Trump has a lot riding on this debate as well. And I – I understand why the pressure would be on Joe Biden as the incumbent. But Donald Trump, we haven't seen him on a high-powered debate stage standing next to his opponent, talking about the issues. We hear him railing, raging against the machine in front of a camera all the time, but not talking substantively about the issues. Joe Biden regularly speaks substantively about the issues, probably would like to be more so in an interview frankly for a lot of us than – than what we've been seeing. But we know where he stands on the issues. How will he meet the moment is the question. But where does Joe – where does Donald Trump stand on the issues? Abortion –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Carlos, what does Donald Trump need to do for a good night?
CARLOS CURBELO:
Peter, no self-inflicted wounds. Donald Trump is often times his own worst enemy as everyone has said here. The pressure's not on him. I mean, there's some pressure. But the heavy pressure's on Joe Biden. He's the one who has to perform. Donald Trump can actually take Governor Noem's advice and talk about policy, boring things. That's what Donald Trump needs to do in this debate: be vanilla, reduce his risk profile to make some of those Americans who switched to Joe Biden in 2020, who chose Joe Biden in 2020 because they thought Trump was too risky, too chaotic. He has to counter that narrative.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Molly, President Biden – oh, Symone, yes?.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
But – but that to me means the pressure is on Donald Trump. Because he has not –
PETER ALEXANDER:
It’s hard for him.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
We have not seen him do that. That is very hard for him.
MOLLY BALL:
That’s right. Can he do that?
PETER ALEXANDER:
Yeah, these are the things that the allies are saying. It seems like it shouldn't be tricky, we haven't necessarily seen it happen yet. Let me ask you about something we've noticed from the Biden campaign in recent weeks. They've particularly leaned in to referring to Mr. Trump as a convicted criminal, “clearly unhinged,” the president said in recent speeches. Is that the message to take into this debate?
MOLLY BALL:
Well, look, the Biden campaign believes they're doing something very clever here by making this argument that because – that – that Trump being a convicted felon shows you that he's focused more on himself. And it’s – it reminds me actually of a version of the argument that a lot of his Republicans opponents made in the primary which was the idea that these legal issues that he faced would be a distraction to him. And it didn't work then. Voters did not believe that he'd be too distracted by his personal issues to govern or to be the nominee. It'll be interesting to see if the Biden campaign continues to feel that this is an effective attack. You know, a lot of Democrats believe that in 2016 Hillary Clinton spent too much time attacking Trump's character and not enough talking about the policies he would implement. At the same time, there is a feeling that a lot of the disengaged voters that Biden needs to reach don't necessarily know about all this baggage that Trump has.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, perhaps. I think there's also the concern, right, that they want to make sure they know about the economy and what his vision is for the next four years. So many Americans, I'm struck as I travel around the country, Greg, don't even know what Joe Biden has accomplished in the course of his four years. You're a Georgia guy, one of the critical battlegrounds. Donald Trump narrowly lost it last go-around. This time he consistently leads in all the polls. How does Joe Biden appeal to the independent voters there?
GREG BLUESTEIN:
Well, I think he appeals partly with that argument about the convicted felon. I mean, think about Georgia. Georgia's the backdrop to this debate. It's also the home of a significant number, small but significant number, of disaffected Republicans who switched ballots, who switched tickets, in not just in 2020, but also in 2022 and also some of them in 2018. These are voters that are concerned about Donald Trump's background, their – his history, not a huge number, but enough that swung the election in 2020 and enough that helped Senator Raphael Warnock get elected in 2022.
PETER ALEXANDER:
How concerning is the fundraising advantage that Joe Biden had? It's now all but been erased by Donald Trump, a lot of it after his conviction in Manhattan there. How worried should the Biden campaign, Symone, be about that?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I don't think they should be too worried. Look, this debate is going to be a big moment, a fundraising opportunity for the president as well. He's coming off the heels of a big fundraiser in L.A. with everybody from George Clooney to Julia Roberts. So I think the money will be there. The question on the table is for the folks that are not tuned in, right, some of those younger voters, base Democratic voters and some of those disaffected voters as well, those disaffected Republicans, will what they see on the debate stage this Thursday make a difference for them? Let’s just –
PETER ALEXANDER:
How can an 81-year-old or a 78-year-old speak to a 21-year-old in this?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Well, well I know some younger people, maybe not 21-year-olds, but some – some mid 20s, early 30s folks –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Yeah.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
– who would love to buy a house, but it's very expensive, who feel their rent is too –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Right.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
– darn high to be clear. And so what is Joe Biden going to do about that if given a next term? And does Donald Trump have a plan? I haven't heard one.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Carlos, we had new reporting today about who the sort of front-runners are as this whittles down the number of VP picks. Doug Burgum, J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio sort of the third choice as we are told right now. Who would be the best asset for Mr. Trump?
CARLOS CURBELO:
Well, Peter, apparently Burgum is the one Trump likes the most and feels most comfortable with. Vance would be the next leader of the MAGA movement. Rubio's got a little residency issue, right, being from the state –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Both from Florida.
CARLOS CURBELO:
– of Florida. However, I think that politically he brings the greatest benefit to the ticket –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Why?
CARLOS CURBELO:
I want you to think about two groups in particular: Hispanics. They have been migrating towards Republicans. Rubio can accelerate that. And Greg, you mentioned these Trump skeptics, the Republicans who are weary of Donald Trump. Marco Rubio's a figure that could give those people comfort, the people who are still showing up in primaries voting for Nikki Haley. Those are two groups that Trump really needs to lock down. And Rubio can provide that benefit not – you know, not even mentioning the fact that Rubio would be a great governing partner too given his foreign policy experience.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Greg, does the VP pick matter anymore?
GREG BLUESTEIN:
I think it does. Look, margins – this is – this is a margins of error race. And the race will be decided in the margins in states like Georgia. States with just a small number of voters –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Right.
GREG BLUESTEIN:
– could affect the outcome. But look, it could also be a countervailing effect, right? Picking a J.D. Vance could also help energize the Democratic base. It could help get Democratic base voters. Look, if you talk to Democrats in Georgia about Joe Biden's, quote unquote, "problems" with Black voters, they don't see it as a battle between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. They see it as a battle between Joe Biden and the couch and getting someone on the far right who can energize Democratic base voters could end up helping Joe Biden in the end.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Symone, you worked for Kamala Harris. Who does she want to debate in this?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I think either – any of the folks that were named. I don't know about formidable. I heard someone say that J.D. Vance would be a formidable and concerned opponent for Vice President Harris. I don't think so. I think she is someone that could take either of them because the reality is it's not about who the VP pick is because your name is number two on the door, not the first name on the door. It's about what Donald Trump says. And that vice president, whoever they may be, will have to defend his record and all of the things that he says.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And Molly, last thought. Notably, all three of those names we mentioned have been very critical on tape against Donald Trump in the past. You can already see the ads writing themselves when you play the VP pick's voice attacking the guy at the top of their own ticket.
MOLLY BALL:
Well, it's hard to find anyone who's been in the Republican Party for more than five minutes who hasn't said something negative about Donald Trump that they've then had to eat. But look, I think, you know, Trump wants a few different things out of his VP pick. And I think to Carlos' point, the decision he makes is going to be a massive statement about what kind of presidency he sees himself potentially having in a second term. Is it about the future of the MAGA movement? Is it about taking someone like a J.D. Vance? Or is it about a "yes" man, right, which is something that we know that he wants throughout his administration, is someone who will not say no to him and will sort of make him feel comfortable indulging all of his instincts. And so I think it's going to tell us really a lot about how he plans to govern which of these men.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Peter, the last vice president he had does – doesn’t – isn't supporting him. And I think that's very telling.
MOLLY BALL:
But he was a "yes" man until he wasn't.
PETER ALEXANDER:
We've got more to talk about when we come back. Some of the best advice for president in a re-election debate that has been learning over decades of experience. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Welcome back. The Biden and Trump campaigns have announced similar strategies ahead of their debate rematch on Thursday. The quote, "Let Biden be Biden” and “let Trump be Trump," encouraging the candidates to lean in to their authentic personalities. That campaign cliché began with Ronald Reagan back in the '80s. In 1984, the polling director for President Reagan's reelection campaign joined this broadcast ahead of his debate with Walter Mondale.
[START TAPE]
ROGER MUDD:
Four years ago you advised President Reagan, or then candidate Reagan, to talk less, to keep his answers brief to avoid serious mistakes that were plaguing his '80 campaign. What's your advice to Mr. Reagan, President Reagan, about his technique tonight?
RICHARD WIRTHLIN:
Well, Roger, I really didn't give quite that counsel.
ROGER MUDD:
Oh you didn't?
RICHARD WIRTHLIN:
I said, "Let Reagan be Reagan," in essence. And I think that's what we'll see tonight.
ROGER MUDD:
What is the danger, Mr. Wirthlin of the president committing some slip of the tongue, like liberating Poland or confusing Lebanon with Libya?" Is that a worry for you?
RICHARD WIRTHLIN:
It isn't a great worry.
ROGER MUDD:
Not a great worry.
RICHARD WIRTHLIN:
The problem and the challenge of the debate is that they offer a freestyle exchange. And the president I've seen debate a number of times, when in fact if it weren't for the debates in the primary of 1980 I'm convinced that Reagan may well have never been nominated.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
This broadcast in 1984. And when we come back, Louisiana became the first state to require the Ten Commandments be displayed in every public classroom, renewing the culture war debate over the separation of church and state. More with our panel next.
[START TAPE]
DONALD TRUMP:
Who likes the Ten Commandments, by the way, going up in the school? They think it's such a bad thing. I said, "Has anyone read these? Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt-- I mean, has anybody read this incredible stuff?” It's just incredible. They don't want it to go up.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
Incredible stuff. That was Donald Trump just yesterday. Welcome back. Your major headline out out of Louisiana, Symone, you know this week, becoming the first state in the country to require the Ten Commandments to be displayed publicly in all public classrooms there. Challenges are coming, of course. But what does this say about the strength of the conservative Christian movement in this country right now?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I think the conservative Christian movement is absolutely infused into what has become the mainstream Republican Party. You know, yesterday on our show, “The Weekend,” we spoke with Kevin Roberts, head of the Heritage Foundation. And he made some of these – these – these points. We talked to them about Project 2025 and when I asked about the project and was it really tied to Trump, he said this was really about Trumpism and infusing Trumpism and institutionalizing Trumpism because Reagan was 40 years ago. And I thought that was very telling.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Greg, how crucial are the culture wars this go around?
GREG BLUESTEIN:
Yeah, look, you've seen similar legislation passed in states like Georgia and other Republican states – Republican-led states. Cultural wars have been a recurring theme. They know almost no bounds.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Does it motivate voters?
GREG BLUESTEIN:
I think it motivates voters for primaries. I don't know that it motivates voters in general elections. I do know that the Republican officials in Georgia hope those types of issues help drive up turnout in deep red parts of the states, where turnout was a little underwhelming in 2020.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Carlos, as you talk about policy, we're going to be hearing some of the back and forth, I think. Immigration, reproductive rights are going to be center stage, the economy as well on Thursday night. Mr. Trump is leaning into these attacks on immigration. The Biden campaign argues that Mr. Trump is to blame for taking that bipartisan border security deal just a few months ago. Mr. Trump is linking illegal immigration with crime right now. Is that going to stick?
CARLOS CURBELO:
Peter, this is a good political strategy. I'm not saying it's honest. I'm not saying it's right. But certainly, Joe Biden's not going to be able to explain himself out of the immigration mess. I mean, it is a very, very tough issue for them, just like abortion is for Trump. I mean, I don't care how many times he says each state can do its own thing. People in these states who are facing some of these tough restrictions are going to blame him. It will be the same with immigration and Biden. And by the way, that includes a lot of Hispanic voters who are upset over the situation at the border, which explains some of them shifting over to President Trump.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And I was struck by the way the Telemundo poll that shows Donald Trump is preferred by 29% of voters as it relates to immigration, Joe Biden by 22%. Neither one of them has this as a runaway right now. I think that is a place that's going to draw some attention.
CARLOS CURBELO:
That Hispanic vote is certainly up for grabs. And by the way, part of that is explained by this culture wars conversation. A lot of Hispanics are identifying with Republicans in the context of the culture wars.
PETER ALEXANDER:
No doubt that's something the Biden campaign is trying to focus on, winning back, avoiding more of that erosion this go around. Molly, the president's support with Latino voters, as we just said, is trending in the wrong direction. We've seen President Biden try to take some action recently, most recently the executive action where he is going to put protections in place to avoid deportation of those undocumented spouses of American citizens if they have been in the country for at least ten years. Can the Biden folks turn things around on this topic?
MOLLY BALL:
You know, I've been covering this issue for more than a decade and my feeling is that Latino voters have become very cynical about the immigration issue especially. They don't see either party doing anything to help them. They don't see either party securing the border. They don't see either party fixing the broken immigration system. You know, whether you're talking about Latino voters, older voters, younger voters, the center of the electorate is concerned about pocketbook issues and the things that affect them directly. They're not concerned about some of this culture war stuff. They're not concerned about a lot of it. But you don't really hear either candidate trying to tailor their message to that center of the electorate. We've heard a lot more about trying to distract people and getting them focused on different issues where they think that they are winning. And so I think Carlos is exactly right, that if President Biden is talking about immigration he is probably losing that conversation. He is not viewed as strong on that issue. And if Trump is talking about abortion, that is an issue that he loses no matter how he tries to talk about it.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Symone, I want to ask you about abortion, because tomorrow marks the two-year anniversary of the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Clearly this has proven to be a political – a potent political issue for the Democrats to this point. What impact do you think it will have on the election cycle? We've seen what it did in 2022. We've seen what it did in some of the early primaries. Will this hold? Will it still be such a big issue come fall?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I think it will be a huge issue come fall, because this is about a health care issue. You know, the same procedure that is used in an abortion is used in a miscarriage, is used when there is a complication and the – the fetus has died and is no longer a viable pregnancy. And in state after state across this country, lawmakers are making the decision that, "Hey, I don't care what your doctor said. This is the law and, again, I don't care what your doctor said. You cannot get the health care that you need." Now, we are waiting on the case from the Supreme Court to come down, a decision on, again, medical care –
PETER ALEXANDER:
In the case of an emergency in the State of Idaho.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
– in case of emergency. And it will make a difference.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And Carlos, I was struck by Kristi Noem here today. There is a difference between Kristi Noem and other Republicans and Donald Trump on this issue in particular. She supports a federal abortion ban. She supports no exceptions in cases of rape and incest. Donald Trump has said no, he wouldn't consider somebody on that, but he still faces a lot of liability on this. He put the three Supreme Court justices in place and overturned Roe v. Wade.
CARLOS CURBELO:
Well, Peter, but it's even more complex than that because he faces liability and risk on both sides. If Donald Trump starts getting too soft on abortion, we started this conversation talking about Christian conservatives.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Will they leave him?
CARLOS CURBELO:
Well, I don't know if they'll leave him, but enthusiasm matters in close elections. And if some of those people say, "Well, Donald Trump really doesn't care about abortion anymore. He's not as staunchly pro-life as he was. He's apologizing for it." Some of those people might stay home. So he's really got to find the perfect balancing act here.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Greg, you work for the Atlanta Journal Constitution. What's the headline when we wake up on Friday morning?
GREG BLUESTEIN:
The headline will be still a close race. I don't know if anything will upend the dynamics of the race, but I do think that that center block will really be important the next few months.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Notably RFK Jr., not going to be there, right? A lot of these folks who are going to be watching, maybe the ones who said, "I don't like either one of those guys." As you said, it's Joe Biden versus the couch. For some of them it's whether the party –
CARLOS CURBELO:
The double haters.
PETER ALEXANDER:
The double haters.
CARLOS CURBELO:
What a horrible term for a perfectly normal people who are unhappy with the two choices.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Exactly.
MOLLY BALL:
Well, and the question is does RFK not being on the stage help or hurt him, right? Because as you mentioned, it's possible that both candidates come off looking so bad that a candidate who's not even there is the one to benefit.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Is RFK Jr. Worse for Joe Biden or for Donald Trump?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I mean, I don't care what the polls and the people say. Conventional wisdom tells me that it is bad for Joe Biden. And I think Democrats know that, which is why there's an entire effort dedicated to tearing him down. RFK.
PETER ALEXANDER:
This has been a great panel. Before we go, tune in to NBC at 9:00 p.m. eastern on Thursday for coverage of the presidential debate hosted by CNN. Lester Holt and Savannah Guthrie will lead NBC New's special coverage and analysis with Kristen Welker, back from family leave. Tom Llamas and Hallie Jackson as well. That's all for today. Thank you for watching. We will be back next week, because of course if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press.
