CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: The January 6th hearings.
JANUARY 6TH HEARING VIDEO:
Hold the line! Hold the line! Hold the line!
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
President Trump summoned the mob, assembled the mob and lit the flame of this attack.
CHUCK TODD:
The evidence:
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON:
It represented Trump's last stand, most desperate chance to halt the transfer of power.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
A sophisticated seven-part plan to overturn the presidential election and prevent the transfer of presidential power.
CHUCK TODD:
The election lies:
FMR. ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR:
I made it clear I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the president it was bull—-.
CHUCK TODD:
The riot.
OFFICER CAROLINE EDWARDS:
I was slipping in people's blood. It was carnage. It was chaos.
CHUCK TODD:
And the warning:
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I say this to my Republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible: there will come a day when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain.
CHUCK TODD:
This morning I'll talk to one of the members of the January 6th committee, Democrat Elaine Luria, the documentary filmmaker who testified on Thursday and a Republican congressman who defied his party and voted for an independent January 6th commission. Plus –
MATTHEW McCONAUGHEY:
These are the same green converse on her feet that turned out to be the only clear evidence that could identify her after the shooting. How about that.
CHUCK TODD:
Gun safety demonstrations from coast to coast. But even if Democrats and Republicans do reach a deal, will the limited changes really make a difference? Joining me for insight and analysis are: Amy Walter, Editor-in-Chief and Publisher of the Cook Political Report, Eddie Glaude Jr. of Princeton University, Leigh Ann Caldwell of The Washington Post and David French, Senior Editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Never before in the country's history have we witnessed a president accused of a criminal conspiracy to take down the democracy. But that's exactly what we saw at Thursday's January 6th opening hearing, where former President Trump was placed at the center of the effort to both overturn the election and inspire the riot at the Capitol. We even heard of testimony that Mr. Trump suggested rioters were right to demand Vice President Pence be hanged simply for certifying the election results. The committee has begun to show its evidence, but does the country have the will or the ability to hold Donald Trump accountable in the wake of all this evidence? If this were happening in another country, what would we think? That it's strong enough to preserve its democracy and rule of law or subject to the rule of the mob? And what would the reaction be here to the prosecution of a former president who is the frontrunner for the Republican nomination in 2024? He may even be an active candidate when indicted. Shortly after January 6th we asked: Is this the end of something or the beginning? Keep that in mind as you watch the hearings. And remember that many who tried and failed to undermine democracy in 2020 are hard at work to succeed in 2024.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
President Trump summoned the mob, assembled the mob and lit the flame of this attack.
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON:
January 6th was the culmination of an attempted coup, a brazen attempt, as one rioter put it, to overthrow the government.
CHUCK TODD:
In a primetime hearing, the House select committee introduced its case that the assault on the Capitol was the violent culmination of an attempted coup orchestrated by Donald Trump.
JANUARY 6TH HEARING VIDEO:
Hold the line! Hold the line!
CHUCK TODD:
The committee demonstrated that right-wing extremist groups, including the Proud Boys and the Oathkeepers, were called to Washington, and influenced to violence by Trump himself.
RIOTER:
We were invited by the President of the United States!
ROBERT SCHORNACK:
Trump asked us to come.
ERIC BARBER:
He personally asked for us to come to D.C. that day.
CHUCK TODD:
Capitol Police Officer Caroline Edwards suffered a traumatic brain injury.
POLICE OFFICER:
We've lost the line. We've lost the line!
OFFICER CAROLINE EDWAARDS:
What I saw was just a war scene. I saw friends with blood all over their faces. I was slipping in people’s blood.
CHUCK TODD:
And Donald Trump was implicated by his own advisers and cabinet members who presented evidence of Trump’s calculated effort to overturn the 2020 election results.
FMR. ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR:
I made it clear I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the president was bull—-.
CHUCK TODD:
And even by his daughter.
IVANKA TRUMP:
It affected my perspective. I respect Attorney General Barr, so I accepted what he said – was saying.
CHUCK TODD:
More of Mr. Trump's former advisers will testify in the weeks to come, including several expected to speak to his fury at his own vice president, Mike Pence.
RIOTER:
Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution, giving states the chance to certify a corrective set of facts.
CROWD:
Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Aware of the rioters’ chants to “hang Mike Pence,” the president responded with this sentiment: quote, “Maybe our supporters have the right idea.” Mike Pence, quote, “deserves” it.
CHUCK TODD:
On Friday, Trump claimed, "I never said, or even thought of saying, ‘Hang Mike Pence.’” And he added, Ivanka "had long since checked out."
REP. JIM BANKS:
Last night’s hearing was a primetime dud. Nothing came out of it that we didn’t know before. It didn’t change anybody’s minds.
CHUCK TODD:
The question now: will our democracy hold former President Trump and his allies accountable? Already, the committee appears to be laying out grounds for a criminal referral of Trump to the Justice Department.
MERRICK GARLAND:
We are undertaking one of the largest investigations in our history to hold accountable everyone who was criminally responsible for the January 6th assault on our democracy. We will follow the facts wherever they lead.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Democratic congresswoman Elaine Luria of Virginia, a member of the January 6th select committee. She's going to lead the hearing on how President Trump encouraged the mob and on what was going on inside the White House during the moment-by-moment parts of the riot. Congresswoman Luria, welcome to Meet the Press.
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
We're going to have three hearings this week. I was wondering if you – if we could go through a few of them here. The one tomorrow, Trump knew he lost, then he pursued the Big Lie. We've seen a taste of some of the evidence here. Explain what the dive is going to be like tomorrow.
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Well, I think the opening to that was really the first clip we showed from former Attorney General Barr that former President Trump was told by multiple people – it should have been abundantly clear that there was no evidence that showed the election was stolen. And he ignored that. And so the hearing that we're going to have on Monday is really focusing on a deep dive in that, getting into the information of, you know, what were all of those things that showed he knew this was a lie but he continued to act on that.
CHUCK TODD:
And he was even told before the election that he was perhaps going to lose, correct?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
And this is going to be shown. I mean this is – the Jason Miller segment is about that.
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
It is. And I think that that was framed in a time frame where, you know, the week or so that we were waiting for the final election results to be called, I think that that was, you know, he's going to lose was, you know, once this is all said and done, all that, key votes are counted, he's going to lose. It’s confirmed.
CHUCK TODD:
Wednesday is the focus on the pressure campaign at the Justice Department. We've heard some stories. Did – you know, was the president himself trying to orchestrate a change in leadership in order to get them to get involved?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
So that hearing is really going to focus, like you said, on the Department of Justice. And you know what I think is going to become clear across the compilation of these hearings is that, you know, this seven-part plan we're going to lay out was every lever of government. They were attempting to use those and, you know, whichever one they could pull and would have some influence, they moved forward with it. So, you know, each of these hearings will lay that out. And, you know, there was a lot of pressure at the Department of Justice. And I frequently say, you know, if there weren't some people in the right places at the right time who did the right thing this could have turned out very differently, and that includes at the Department of Justice, the former vice president. And, you know, this pressure campaign was widespread.
CHUCK TODD:
And all of these depositions are going to be – we're going to see video tape. We know we see Bill Barr. Are we going to see Jeffrey Rosen? Are we going to see folks like that?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
We've interviewed 1,000 people. So a lot of those names that you know were involved in this will be part of it either via taped depositions and interviews, or we'll have witnesses appearing in person across the course of the hearings as well.
CHUCK TODD:
And then later this week is the focus on the pressure campaign on Mike Pence. In, in that scenario you've got a lot of -- it's Mike Pence's chief of staff. Is he going to be testifying live?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Well, we haven't announced, and and we'll be rolling out, you know, who our live witnesses are. But it's clear that he provided information to the committee, and that will be incorporated in what we present. I mean, when you have the former vice president's chief of staff, you know, speaking to this committee and providing information about just what that pressure was. We have information that's been, you know, publicly released about that, but knowing from the inside how intense that was and, you know, the former vice president, Vice President Pence, I mean, he did the right thing at a very critical time.
CHUCK TODD:
There's going to be an effort – there’s also going to be a hearing devoted to the effort to find alternative electors and overturn at the state level. Is the actions and role of Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas – we've seen a lot of evidence that she was certainly involved in lobbying lawmakers on a local level, including in the state of Arizona. Is she a part of this investigation or not?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
It is not the focus of this investigation. We are talking to lawmakers from across the country in these key swing states where this pressure was applied. And the evidence they provide us will be included, all of their communications with people trying to pressure them.
CHUCK TODD:
But she is not a focus, and there has not been an effort to reach out to her to see what more, you know, perhaps even subpoena her to see what more she knows or was involved in?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
It's not the focus of the investigation. We are, you know, looking at the, the plot, this wide-ranging seven-part plan that the former president and his allies had to, to overturn the results of the election resulting in the violence on January 6th.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm guessing if she had – if you thought she had a more organizing role she'd be a focus. But is that, is that the sense, that she was more of a partisan sort of rooter or champion of that but not involved? Is that the conclusion?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
I'm not sure that we've reached any conclusions. We're still in an ongoing investigation receiving additional evidence and, you know, if there's something that reaches the level of needing to dig into it deeper from the committee we've been doing that all along.
CHUCK TODD:
Your hearing is going to focus on what President Trump was doing and not doing --
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Not doing, especially --
CHUCK TODD:
– on January 6th, 187 minutes. Do you have the tick-tock? Do you feel like you now know minute by minute what Donald Trump was doing throughout the attack on the Capitol?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Well, I think it'd be more clear to describe it as what he was not doing. You know, it's been reported previously that the phone logs at the White House on that date, they're missing information. There is a gap there that we have tried, you know, through these witnesses, we've interviewed 1,000 witnesses and a lot of people who worked directly in the White House for the president in his immediate vicinity during that day, so we've pieced together a very comprehensive tick-tock timeline of what he did. And then 187 minutes, you know, this man had the microphone. He could speak to the whole country. His duty was to stand up and say something and try to stop this. So we'll talk about that and what I see to be his dereliction of duty. I mean, he had a duty to act. And he didn't.
CHUCK TODD:
And can you confirm here he never – not only never inquired about the health and safety of the vice president, but also never talked with him?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
That is what we understand from everything we've gathered.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask about a specific witness, Cassidy Hutchinson, who's a special assistant to President Trump, was in the White House on January 6th. Is she helping to connect these dots and sort of plug the holes that you guys had on those 187 minutes?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
It's a complex process to piece together. You know, you have 187 minutes, very few records. So, you know, everyone who has come to speak to the committee that has direct evidence of that time frame has been very helpful in piecing it together. I can't say that there's one person in particular –
CHUCK TODD:
Are we going to see her publicly though?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
We are still, you know, working on who our panel of witnesses will be. And there are several who have very direct and important information that we will --
CHUCK TODD:
She sat --
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
– announce that soon.
CHUCK TODD:
– with you for 20 hours. How many witnesses did you talk to that sat with you for 20 hours?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
I'm not aware that there's any who, you know, provided quite that much time to our work and effort.
CHUCK TODD:
On the accusation that Scott Perry and other members of Congress sought pardons, the only name checked was Scott Perry. The other members of Congress, are we looking at one other or multiple others?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
We'll be providing that information through the course of our presentations and our hearings upcoming.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay. But the allegation is out there. I mean, you guys have hard evidence that they requested these pardons?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
We do.
CHUCK TODD:
And how many? Can you say is it more than two members of Congress?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
I'm going to wait and we will provide that as part of our information that we provide in the upcoming hearings.
CHUCK TODD:
Last question and I'm curious of this. I think you guys, everybody on the committee, has an idea of what happened. Who plays the, who plays the role of devil's advocate on that committee hearing?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
As far as during the questions?
CHUCK TODD:
During when you guys are --
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
I think we take turns.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Like, everyone it’s at different points. Because people have different perspectives. And, you know, the fact that it's bipartisan it kind of ping pongs back and forth. You know, different members, you know, will come in and say, "Well, what about this?" And then other people will say, "I'm not sure that's the direction we should go." So it's so collaborative. In that aspect it's different than any other committee in the House because we're working so closely together and really bouncing it off of each other.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, the politics of this. You're in a swing district.
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
This is one of those things that some people representing swing districts are like, "Please don't put me on the committee." You've sort of run towards this. Why?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
It's that important. This is the kind of thing that will define the history of our country and our democracy moving forward. And if we can't preserve that I don't know what the country will look like for my daughter. So I thought that this effort was so important that, you know, if it means in November I don't get reelected I can sleep with that --
CHUCK TODD:
You're okay if your role in these hearings is what's used, good or bad, in your reelection?
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Absolutely. I'm doing the right thing. I served in uniform for 20 years. I take the oath seriously that I took the first time when I was 17 and started at the Naval Academy and throughout my entire career and again in Congress. So, you know, the work of this committee is more important than something like my own personal reelection.
CHUCK TODD:
Elaine Luria, Democrat from Virginia Beach. I got that right. Thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
REP. ELAINE LURIA:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Good luck with the hearings. And joining me now is Nick Quested. He's the filmmaker who is working on a documentary about why Americans are so divided when they have so much in common. He was embedded with the radical Proud Boys on January 6th. His crew captured riot videos, shown for the very first time on Thursday night. Nick Quested, welcome to Meet the Press, sir.
NICK QUESTED:
Thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with how did you get Mr. Tarrio and other members of the Proud Boys to say, "Yes. Film us. We want this on the record. Document what we're doing?"
NICK QUESTED:
Well, I had a colleague who gave me Enrique's phone number and I called him. And he was very receptive to the idea. He liked the film that I had produced called Restrepo with my colleagues Sebastian Junger and Tim Hetherington, which was a film about a deployment of veterans in the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan. So I think the veteran aspect of that was appealing to them.
CHUCK TODD:
How quickly after January 6th did you alert authorities about the footage you had? And then, how quickly did you get to the point where you felt legally or ethically comfortable turning your footage over?
NICK QUESTED:
Well, there’s two aspects to that. There's the January 6 footage and then, there's the other footage. So on January 6th, I was very aware that we had filmed multiple potential crimes. And these were on the steps of the Capitol. They were inside the Capitol. So I called a friend of mine whose a U.S. attorney and former SEAL. And I said, "Well, I have this footage. What should we do?" And he referred me to the criminal department of D.C. police, who then referred me to the FBI.
CHUCK TODD:
The infamous video in the parking garage that, coincidentally, is the parking garage that I am using right now in the building I work in here, when did you realize that was such a key moment, and it was going to be a key moment, legally? Because that is certainly evidence in the seditious conspiracy charges that both some of those Oath Keepers and Proud Boys are dealing with.
NICK QUESTED:
I mean, we realize its importance, you know, instantaneously after the January 6th. We thought it was just an optically bad thing to do when we were, you know, shooting it. But, you know, after January 6th, to see Stewart and Enrique in the same parking garage, having, you know, met them - sort of rendezvoused at the Phoenix Hotel earlier, that's sort of when we really understood it to be an optically bad situation.
CHUCK TODD:
You had been with them a couple of times for post-election rallies, I think one in November, one in December, and then this was going to be the third time. I think I have that timeline right. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but, you know, often you've had interesting conversations with Mr. Tarrio. You had tacos with him. You were dealing with him in Baltimore. In hindsight, do you think back to some conversations and go, "Wow. Maybe I should have seen X, Y, or Z here sooner. And now that I've put all this together, I see it now"?
NICK QUESTED:
I was making a different film at the time. I was making a film about why America's divided. So I was asking much bigger questions about what does it mean to be American and asking him for his point of view on certain issues, whether it be policing, or healthcare, or whatever these issues were. My questions to him were much broader. And in retrospect, if I'd have known what I know now, I'd have very much changed my line of questioning. But I just want to go back. I really started to spend time with the Proud Boys from December the 11th, onward. That was where we started, so.
CHUCK TODD:
When was the last time you spoke to Mr. Tarrio?
NICK QUESTED:
The last time I spoke to him, we did an interview in Miami subsequent, so it was probably in the middle of February. And then, he was incarcerated for a while on the magazine charge and the, you know, banner-burning charge. And then, I texted him and we were, you know, discussing coming down to do a follow-up interview when he was arrested again.
CHUCK TODD:
Does he still want to talk to you? Do you get the sense he's still got more to say?
NICK QUESTED:
I don't know. I haven't reached out to him since he's been arrested for the second time.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, on December 12th, he went to the White House. What do you know about that White House trip?
NICK QUESTED:
I know very little, apart from I implored him to allow us to come with him. But he went on his own. And then, he returned. And that's it.
CHUCK TODD:
Was he meeting somebody? What did he indicate the meeting was about?
NICK QUESTED:
He implied that he was going to meet with White House officials, but I don't know if he did.
CHUCK TODD:
You have become a public figure in all of this. How many times have you feared for your safety?
NICK QUESTED:
At the moment, I don't fear for my safety because my testimony is purely fact-based. I'm testifying about what I saw and I can back that up with the video that I shot. So, you know, America is one of the safest countries in the world. So, I don't feel any jeopardy at the moment.
CHUCK TODD:
You are still going to produce this documentary? And if so, what's the focus now?
NICK QUESTED:
The focus of the film is about the 64 days. You know it very much parallels the committee's investigation. I mean, we pivoted about three months afterwards, four months afterwards. It took us a while to process what we'd even seen, I mean, physically to process this. You know, my camera was broken, I'd been shot with pepper balls, and I'd got into, you know, various scuffles just on the steps, which was particularly shocking, because we weren't prepared for this and this is in the country I live in. I'm used to covering conflicts abroad, and I can process that, and I can separate that from my life. But to see it in the country I live in was particularly problematic, you know.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you answer the initial question you were trying to get answered, "Why is America so divided when they have so much in common"?
NICK QUESTED:
I mean, it's such a broad question, and it's so philosophical. I don't know if I can find commonality now. I think America has become so divided I don't know if there is commonality anymore.
CHUCK TODD:
Wow. That's a question we ponder around here, ourselves, quite a bit. Mr. Quested, I really appreciate you coming on, and sharing your perspective and experience with us. Appreciate it.
NICK QUESTED:
I appreciate you having me. Thank you so much.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, Republicans mostly reacted to Thursday's hearing by calling it illegitimate and a sham. But what about the Republicans who were so uncomfortable about January 6th that they wanted their own independent investigation? I'm going to talk to one of them, Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Republicans mostly dismissed Thursday's hearings as a sham, partisan and have proved nothing. But it is worth noting that there were 35 Republicans in the House who broke ranks last year and voted to create an independent commission to investigate January 6th. Now, Mitch McConnell and the Senate nixed that commission. So, how are these folks reacting to Thursday's hearing? One of those Republicans who wanted to see an independent commission was Don Bacon of Nebraska, and he joins me now. Congressman Bacon, welcome to Meet the Press, sir.
REP. DON BACON:
Good morning, Chuck. It's great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I know you believe this committee is not balanced. And I also know you wanted to see an independent investigation. So I want to stipulate that. That said, what did you think of the presentation on Thursday night, and how compelling did you find it?
REP. DON BACON:
Two things: One, I didn't hear a lot of new information, but I track the news every day. But there wasn't a whole lot new news in that presentation. I think most of the information that we had on the attorney general, the President Trump's daughter, was already out there. I did find it interesting how many people in the White House tried to compel or tell the president that he lost the election. I thought that was interesting. But by and large, I didn't hear new information, so that's one thing. On the other hand, I think the optics of having a producer, everything on teleprompter—it looked so staged. I think a lot of folks see this as really trying to change the dialogue of our country leading into November for the elections. I think that's what I hear back home primarily, so we would've been much better off with a bipartisan commission, with an equal board, half Republican half Democrat. There would've been a timeline of when they had to complete. And there had to be consensus on subpoenas. And I thought we made a mistake on our side of the aisle by opposing that because what we have today is a very stacked deck in the committee. In fact, the Republicans that were appointed were kicked off of the committee, and I think that hurt the legitimacy viewed by many.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand what you are, I think, voicing, what you're hearing from some of your perhaps more conservative constituents, so I understand where you come from. Let's talk about what the hearing discovered, what the hearing uncovered. And I understand what you're saying when you knew a lot of this, but the American public may not have understood the piecemeal of this. Let me talk about one thing that I'm curious about. This is--I'm going to play a clip from Congresswoman Cheney, the vice chair, on what President Trump didn't do during the riot. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Not only did President Trump refuse to tell the mob to leave the Capitol, he placed no call to any element of the United States government to instruct that the Capitol be defended.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
She went on to name-check: He didn't call the secretary of defense, the attorney general, DHS, the National Guard. Considering hearing that, that was a dereliction of duty. At what point is that violating your oath to the Constitution?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, Chuck, I actually agree with you. I criticized the president on January 6th and afterwards. He had over three hours where he could've gone on TV, or made various statements telling the protesters to stop. I'm all for peaceful protest, but when you're assaulting police and when you're vandalizing the Capitol and you're defecating in the Capitol, which those things happened, it's wrong. The president had the opportunity for over three hours to speak up, and I think it was negligence. He should've done better. I didn't care for the way he treated Vice President Pence, I thought that was wrong as well. So I've been critical of the president on January 6th and beyond. I thought he should've been a better leader in this case.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think his dereliction of duty was criminal?
REP. DON BACON:
You know, whether it's criminal or not—I'm not a lawyer or judge—I thought it was wrong. And as a citizen, I think, you know, the American people have to judge this themselves, whether it's, you know, charging someone for a crime or not, but we have to judge it just from a political standpoint. And I think the American people, by and large, know it was wrong not to intervene and not to say something. We have a duty as citizens, and he had a duty as a president and as leader. I'm a five-time commander in the Air Force. You've got to speak up and take charge, and he did not.
CHUCK TODD:
If formal charges are brought against him for incitement, it sounds like you're not going to dismiss that out of hand, are you?
REP. DON BACON:
No, but you know he’s--I look at it this way: He has already left. I think we should be looking more forward on this, but we'll see what the evidence comes out with in regards to the president. I’d just say what he did was wrong; he should've spoke up. When it gets to the legal matters, I'm a little less confident; I'm not a lawyer.
CHUCK TODD:
You talk about you want to look forward, but he’s going to--if he's a candidate in 2024, is he fit to be president?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, first we'll get to the November elections. I put my primary focus on there. I do think we need a new majority to serve as a check and balance. I think the American people right now look at this—it's like the tenth, eleventh, or twelfth priority. Inflation, gas prices, the border, crime—those are all front and center for the average American right now. Now, looking at 2024, I think the Republicans should also look forward. We need someone that has conservative policies, but I think we have to acknowledge that the American people don't like name-calling. They don't like the rude behavior. They like folks who treat people respectfully. And I think that's what cost President Trump in 2020. And so we should take that as a lesson. Conservative values with optimism, respectful behavior like President Reagan as an example, I think that's what we should be embracing.
CHUCK TODD:
You – I understand it sounds like you think he doesn't have the character to be president, but is that fair to say, that he's not fit, doesn't have the character?
REP. DON BACON:
It's the temperament. It's how you treat other people. I think the American people in 2020—the voters—were tired of the name-calling, the Twitter, but they by and large liked the policies. We have to remember, we picked up 15 seats in the House that November. I won our seat by about five points, while President Trump lost it by eight points in our district. So I think the policies—we should focus on that. But we have to also learn the lesson: why did we lose in 2020? It was the comportment and the temperament. And yes, a democracy respects elections. And our president should've respected the conclusion, particularly when all of the court cases were figured out.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you imagine ever casting a vote for him yourself again?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, I'm going to focus on 2022 but no, I'll be looking for other candidates. I mean there’s--we have a great slate of potential Republican presidents for 2024, and I look forward to being very involved in trying to get the right candidate nominated.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, but what if he's the nominee? Is he a “never” for you now?
REP. DON BACON:
You know, I'm reluctant to go there, but he's not going to be my choice in the primary, that's for sure. But here again, I feel like we're missing the boat if we focus on 2024. We have 2022 in November, and we need a check and balance in Congress right now, too. And I think if we have a Republican House and maybe a Republican Senate, it will force Joe Biden and his administration to go to the middle. But right now, he is not. He's catered more to his left side of the aisle. And we--if we can get a Republican House, maybe we can get him more moderate on his policies. That's my desire, my hope.
CHUCK TODD:
Don Bacon, Republican from Omaha, Nebraska, representative of the Second District. Thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. I appreciate it.
REP. DON BACON:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, will Donald Trump be held accountable for January 6th? And if so, what's that going to look like? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: Leigh Ann Caldwell of The Washington Post; Eddie Glaude Jr., Princeton University; David French, senior editor of The Dispatch; Amy Walter, editor-in-chief and publisher of The Cook Political Report. I want to start the question this way, and David, I'll start with you. I think we're headed towards a criminal referral of the former president of the United States, looking for him to be charged as a criminal. Now what?
DAVID FRENCH:
You know, it's going to be a matter of facts, law, and here's the last bit that's really important: will. So what do the facts say? What does the law say? That's going to be sort of easy to discern after all this is over. In fact, it's already been pretty easy to discern, particularly in Georgia. Georgia, I think, is where Trump's conduct was most brazen, most obviously implicating criminal statutes, both at the state and the federal level. But the question here, Chuck, is will. Will somebody indict someone who may be announcing in the next few months that he's going to run for president again, and immediately become the Republican front-runner for the nomination? That's where the political will comes into play. And the more brazen the facts, sort of, the less bold you have to be. And so that's what we don't know, is how brazen will the facts get.
CHUCK TODD:
Eddie?
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
That's the tragic choice. I mean, the fact is is that if we know that he needs to be indicted, or he's broken the law in some way, but there's a threat of violence if you indict him. And if you don't indict him --
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't there a threat of violence?
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
If you don't indict him, there is the end of the rule of law. So it's the tragic choice that Merrick Garland faces, I think.
CHUCK TODD:
Leigh Ann, what would we say about another democracy going through this?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Well, I think that we would have a double standard on what we would say, absolutely. But before we even get to 2024, there's also 2022 and the midterm elections. And, you know, I reported earlier this week that last month, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, in a closed door meeting, she told her colleagues that January 6th is not necessarily on the ballot. People are not going to go to the polls on this. People are going to vote on inflation, on gas prices. But House Democrats in this January 6th select committee, she says, are stewards of democracy. And so they need to do this. But I also talked to a Democratic consultant last night who held focus groups after the first hearing, and they said that they were actually quite surprised at how much this resonated with the Independents. The focus groups were with the Independents, and how much they didn't know before the Thursday night hearing, and how much it really had an impact on them.
AMY WALTER:
And so the question is how long that sticks, right? We live in a culture where, minute by minute, our attention shifts to something else. And we know by the time we hit November, this will feel like it was --
CHUCK TODD:
The Johnny Depp trial is over though.
AMY WALTER:
– a million miles away. Yeah, I was going to mention that, Chuck. Thanks so much. So I think the challenge right now is twofold. One, it's what Eddie and David put forward about what does the Justice Department do? But it's also making the case that this is not just about what happened in the past, it's preventing it from happening again in the future, and it's also in the present. And that's the case that you're going to hear from Democrats in the midterm, especially those who are running against people who were either actually around on January 6th, in the case of the gubernatorial candidate in Pennsylvania, or who were active in some way, shape, or form, or who still won't agree that the president of the United States was duly elected and legitimately elected, but to make the final case that this has to be something that's prevented in the future. When I listen to focus groups of Independents, that's what they say is, "I'm worried something like this is going to happen again." So this committee has to answer the question, "How do we prevent that?"
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
On Republicans though, what was really telling is on Wednesday, the day before this hearing, or it might've even been Thursday, Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy was asked over and over again at a press conference if President Biden was legitimately elected. And he refused to say. January 6th, he said, but now he won't. And the reason is, is because this is so politically treacherous for Republican base voters for actually a Republican leader to come out and say that – who knows full well that Biden was legitimately elected – to actually say it.
DAVID FRENCH:
So that's cowardly and it's even more cowardly after the Georgia primaries because the Georgia primaries, you had one-on-one confrontation between the stop the steal candidates and Republican establishment, including Brad Raffensperger, who did probably more than anyone prior to Liz Cheney to directly confront, and Vice President Pence, to directly confront the president. And they won. They beat their MAGA primary challengers. And yet still, still these Republican officeholders in Washington are retreating from that question. They're terrified of that question. And yet, Georgia just demonstrated that there's a chance here to break the Republicans free.
CHUCK TODD:
And that to me is one of the – and Eddie, without pushing you into an answer, I kind of feel like the real measurement of success or failure of these hearings is how strong Donald Trump's grip is on the Republican Party in six months, not today or in a year. You know, I didn't know Tom Rice was going to vote to impeach. I don’t think anybody here – Tom Rice? Everybody had to quickly look up --
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
We thought it was a mistake.
CHUCK TODD:
– who's Tom Rice?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
We thought it was a mistake. Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
People thought it was a mistake. There are going to be a few people moved by this who say, "You know what? I'm off the train. This was horrible."
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Right. So I think there are folks who have made their decisions, right? There are folks on the left, and folks on the right. They've made their decisions. But there are these people in between. There are these folks in the middle that we're always talking about, these Independents that we're always talking about, right? What does it mean for the committee to connect the dots? You know, I'm a professor. You know, we tell our students when you're writing your paper, "This is how you organize it. Tell me what you're going to do. Do it, then tell me what you did." What we saw on January 6th, they laid out the blueprint, the general architecture, the road map for what we will hear. So by connecting the dots narratively, they may convince folks. But I want to say this really quickly. We need to stop believing that some of these folks on the Republican side are actually democratic actors.
CHUCK TODD:
Meaning small D?
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
They are not democrat – they are illiberal. And when we treat them as typical opponents, we're actually contributing to the problem because some of these folks are using the democratic process to undermine democracy itself.
CHUCK TODD:
David, we talked about this earlier. We're going to have a controversial abortion ruling. We have a heavy debate on guns. We're not happy with the state of the world and the economy as it is right now. And we may have a former president of the United States put on trial. Are we going to hold?
DAVID FRENCH:
I mean, I believe we'll hold. But I can't say with 100% confidence that we will. I mean, this is the reality that we're facing now. We're facing a degree of division. And it's not just division, Chuck, it's animosity. There's a difference between, say, Auburn and Alabama fans, and what Republicans and Democrats are doing today. There is an active degree of hatred here. And it's very hard to respect liberty or democracy in an atmosphere of pure hate.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Let me pause it right here. A quick note. We're campaign junkies here, so I've got to let you know about this. Sarah Palin will be advancing to the final round of voting in Alaska to replace – in a special election to replace Congressman Don Young, who died in March. NBC News says three of the final four candidates are set, including a former Democratic candidate for Senate and the namesake, if you will, son of a former Alaska politician. Santa Claus, by the way, who is actually on the ballot, does still have a chance to place fourth. Currently in sixth. We've got about 22% more precincts to count. When we come back, trust, or lack of trust in government. We're going to look at what Americans think is the real reason people these days run for political office. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. Poll after poll finds American voters believing the country is on the wrong track. And if there's one other thing that Democrats and Republicans have in common these days, it's that they don't trust Washington to fix it. Look, at the turn of the century right after the 9/11 attacks, trust in government to do the right thing was pretty high. And it was across the board. Twenty years later, it is down to just 20%. Let me show you again, no real partisan divide here. In October of 2001, a majority of Democrats, larger majority of Republicans, had trust in that Republican control of government. Twenty years later, these numbers have collapsed among both parties. The Democrats, more than half, Republicans down to just 9% trust in government to do what's right most or all of the time. It's a Democratic government. That's why the Democratic number's a little higher here, but this is really troubling. Now, you might ask yourself: How did we get here? And what do they think next? Well, it's a very cynical public. They believe right now that most candidates that run for office, they don't do it to serve the community. Only 21% think people run for office in order to worry about the greater good. 19% of Democrats think this. 24% of Republicans. Now, look at the reverse. A full 65% think most candidates run for office to serve their personal interests, nothing else. And this is across the board. 66% of Democrats believe this. 63% of Republicans. When we talk about the broken democracy, this may be bigger than any polarization problem that we have. If the voters don't trust who's running for office to do the right thing, how does this democracy survive and thrive? When we come back, should President Biden run for reelection? Well, a growing number of Democratic lawmakers told The New York Times no. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We only have a few minutes, but we have some breaking news. It appears that Chris Murphy and John Cornyn have come to an agreement on a deal to do something when it comes to reforming our access to guns. Leigh Ann's got some of the details. This is your breaking news. Tell us about it.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah. So I was just told from a source that there is going to be a deal announced on gun mental health legislation today around 11:30, 12:00 p.m. Eastern Time. And these – this deal is going to include the things that they had been talking about: incentives for states to implement red flag laws –
CHUCK TODD:
But don't call it a red flag law, right? Yeah.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
They have a different name for it. It's much more complicated. There is going to be a separate background check process for ages 18-21 years old. There's also going to be a lot of money for mental health services. There's going to be money to secure schools. And so this is – there's going to be a clarification on who needs to apply for a federal firearm license. So that's an additional kind of background check thing.
CHUCK TODD:
As a dealer. As a dealer, right?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah, because there's a lot of people who are illegally purchasing these, evading the federal firearm license. And so this is big news actually, that a deal is going to be announced today. And this is with the negotiators between Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, Senator John Cornyn of Texas, who have been leading these negotiations.
CHUCK TODD:
David, we were talking during the break. "Red flag," the phrase "red flag law" had started to become a bit politically problematic.
DAVID FRENCH:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
And they've gotten to this term "crisis." Say it again, if you could do it again. "A crisis intervention act" I guess?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
State crisis intervention orders.
CHUCK TODD:
Orders. Okay. And the importance of that.
DAVID FRENCH:
Yeah. The importance here is we have 50 years of study. This is sad, terribly sad. Fifty years worth of mass shootings to study, and a National Institute for Justice funded study found that in a majority of instances mass shooters leak their plans beforehand. In other words, they broadcast their deadly intentions. And we keep seeing this time and time again. And what a red flag law or “crisis intervention order” does is it gives police, parents, principals the ability to say, "This person seems to be in a state of crisis. They should not have a gun." And it provides an easy process, very similar to a domestic violence restraining order that people are very familiar with, to remove guns and to bar that person from obtaining guns. And it's one thing that seems very targeted at the actual crisis we face and targeted at the behavior that mass shooters exhibit.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I'm not going to pretend that this is enough something for some people, but it is something.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
It is. It is something. But I'm just going to keep in the foreground the 11-year-old who testified who had to smear herself in blood. I'm going to keep in mind those babies who couldn't be identified because of an assault weapon, a weapon of war, that's in the hands of an 18-year-old. This is the beginning, but we have so much more to do.
CHUCK TODD:
There was a moment earlier this week – and we had it in our open – of Matthew McConaughey, who has been – he’s a Uvalde, Texas native. He was methodical. He spent a lot of time with lawmakers off-camera. He did a couple of on-camera things. Went to the White House. He went over to a conservative cable channel and had the same message. And this – this feels as if at least it fits where he was, which is, "Hey, can we have something? Can we have some middle ground here?" What did you make of it?
AMY WALTER:
It's sort of appropriate that this is coming after your Data Download on the lack of trust in government.
CHUCK TODD:
I know.
AMY WALTER:
That – but it is. It's important that Americans can see that government can get stuff done. And it's not oing to be perfect. And it's not going to stop a lot of this. And there's still more that needs to be done in terms of preventing these kind of mass shootings. But it is a start. And I think for a country that feels like all Washington does is look out for itself, it's a step forward.
CHUCK TODD:
You wrote a very powerful piece last week. I think you titled it "Gun Idolatry." Is – that sentiment is still out there, and there are people that believe any restriction is an attack on the Constitution. How are they going to react to this?
DAVID FRENCH:
Well, there is going to be people who are going to be volcanically angry at this exactly for the reasons you described. They'll be very particularly angry at the "red flag" language, believing it violates due process. But, again, you have to drill down and get at there's an exhausted majority of Americans who are ready for some compromise and some progress. And you have to push past that fringe and drill down to that exhausted majority. And the red flag law in particular, sell that to the American people as directly designed to deal with the exact behavior that we see mass shooters exhibit. This is a government reform that is aimed like an arrow at a very serious problem.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, look, we were going to talk about a political problem that has arisen for the president, which is the New York Times going public with a lot of Democratic angst over his political prospects, but I think we chose the right focus considering that every once in a while let's see if Congress can act. They're going to try to act. Nothing's been voted on yet.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's remember that. And nothing – and, by the way, nothing's been officially announced.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we go, I'm excited to tell you about Meet the Press NOW, our new show on NBC News NOW, a news-focused streaming service where on every weekday at 4:00 Eastern Time you can watch us for free just about anywhere you find video: YouTube, Peaco*ck, MeetThePress.com. It is everywhere. No subscription necessary. That's all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
